The pricing makes sense given the build and attention to detail, it’s a bit higher than I was expecting. Totally get why though, I wasn't aware you left Meta recently, salute to you for pursuing your dream projects! I’ve been really excited about this keyboard for a while now since your first blog about it, so here are a few curious questions now that it's close to the Kickstarter:
1. Once the supply chain evens out and you’ve recouped the upfront costs, what do you think the price per unit might settle at?
2. Does this first version capture everything you originally wanted, or are there a few features you’re saving for future iterations? If yes, what are those?
3. Any idea how much of a discount early Kickstarter backers might get?
4. How will tech support or warranties work if, say, a key stops working after a year?
5. And how far apart can the two halves be placed and still work smoothly? (Asking on behalf of us broad-shouldered folks 😄)
Thanks for sharing your journey so openly Ryan, really appreciate how transparent you’ve been while pushing through the tough parts. Can’t wait to see this come to life! I will try my best to save up to place an order, your keyboard and my email address share the word 'compose'!
> Can’t wait to see this come to life! I will try my best to save up to place an order, your keyboard and my email address share the word 'compose'!
Appreciate your support, spreading the word is very helpful 🙏
> 1. Once the supply chain evens out and you’ve recouped the upfront costs, what do you think the price per unit might settle at?
There's still so much ambiguity to resolve (e.g. shipping/fulfillment, fluctuating tariffs, marketing, customer support costs, returns) that if I told you something now I'd just be guessing
> 2. Does this first version capture everything you originally wanted, or are there a few features you’re saving for future iterations? If yes, what are those?
This first version captures everything I originally wanted
> 3. Any idea how much of a discount early Kickstarter backers might get?
Haven't done the math on this yet but will have the answer in the coming 1-2 weeks for the sake of the Kickstarter
> 4. How will tech support or warranties work if, say, a key stops working after a year?
If there is some manufacturing defect, I expect we would replace it for you
> 5. And how far apart can the two halves be placed and still work smoothly? (Asking on behalf of us broad-shouldered folks 😄)
5-10 meters apart should be no problem. It will work for the most broad-shouldered person of all time
> If there is some manufacturing defect, I expect we would replace it for you
I’m also curious how you plan to handle non‑manufacturing issues, since with electronics it’s often tricky to distinguish between a defect and problems arising from regular use over time. Is there going to be tech support for repairs or the only option would be to purchase a new one?
It's going to depend on a lot of factors that are still up in the air right now but it is a great question that we will answer at launch (there will be an FAQ section)
I’m not really in the market for your product but I’m following along because I appreciate you taking time to be transparent and think out loud. It’s helpful and even cathartic for me as someone who also is learning similar lessons / asking similar questions. Keep it up! You clearly have the customer in mind and that bodes well.
I think the price is reasonable and it's worth investing in. Above all, I love the design so much that I hope they'll deliver a real product with a flexible plan that won't break the bank.
Appreciate your support, we could definitely use it!
> deliver a real product with a flexible plan that won't break the bank
That's the plan, in the next post I'll share more thoughts on timelines with all the information I have. It looks like every new hardware project I see gets delayed on their original timeline and ships late, which I'd like to avoid
Interesting idea. Not exactly apples to apples since they'd have extra keys, be missing the wireless communication between boards, and lack the tenting/palm pads. Not to mention their operations costs are probably much cheaper per unit given their scale
That being said as a rough estimate it seems within ballpark. Two magic keyboards would cost $200 retail
An extra $65 to get to our target retail for the tenting case and palm pads seems within a reasonable range
Removing the palm rests was something I considered for a long time during the design phase because we wanted it to be as minimal as possible. I removed the palm pads from my Kinesis for a month to give it a serious test
I found it tired my wrists and I would often miss the first key presses before my hands were situated in the right spot. So I knew we needed to offer palm rests
I also considered making them optional that as well. However, that would be difficult given how thin we want to make the keyboard (e.g. magnets not strong enough, thin hinge not reliable enough, etc). Also there's additional operational complexity in letting people order with and without palm pads. We're aiming to keep things simple for the launch to make sure we can deliver on quality
I see the value in what you're asking for even though it won't be in the MVP. I'm open to a future iteration that serves your needs (perhaps a "light" version) depending on how many others want it as well
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I definitely agree with keeping the first run simple.
I guess I won't even ask about ISO layout 😂 I still miss tilde being next to left shift when I use US keyboards.
The other piece of feedback I have is about the left and right arrow keys. The full height keys have been removed from the current generation of Apple keyboard, and with good reason; it's easier to locate and navigate the arrow keys tactilely with the half height left and right keys.
> I guess I won't even ask about ISO layout 😂 I still miss tilde being next to left shift when I use US keyboards.
Haha yea that's probably too much. If there is demand and we deliver well on our first commitment, then maybe one day!
> it's easier to locate and navigate the arrow keys tactilely with the half height left and right keys.
Interesting, you're the second person to say this. Have you tried both and feel this way?
My immediate thoughts were:
1. Using more surface area is better because it is easier to hit and looks better (all the keys are flush)
2. It's pretty easy to locate the arrow keys by the unique sizing of the up and down arrows (seems like this is the part some people may disagree with?)
Armchair quarterbacking here, but I think the niche you have is something special. Apple-like obessive design but for ergonomics keyboard category seems pretty unique and valuable. My alternative take here is that keyboard markets may be bimodal like the furnitures market - there isn't much of a buyer between Ikea and design within reach. So what about focusing on making the most beautiful, travel friendly, high quality ergonomics keyboard and charge double what you are thinking now? You would only need sell half as much to bring in the same revenue but hopefully at a higher margin.
> So what about focusing on making the most beautiful, travel friendly, high quality ergonomics keyboard
I agree that quality should be the number one priority and we should charge whatever is needed to make the best possible keyboard we can. During the design phase, if ever we were faced with a quality <> cost tradeoff we always picked the higher quality option
> charge double what you are thinking now
This seems to be the strategy of the NUIO keyboard (they're charging north of $500) and from what I can tell, hardly anyone is buying it. I don't see too many people talking about it or reviewing it
Also, taking a step back, when I imagine myself buying an ergonomic keyboard given that the Kinesis is available for $144 I don't think I'd pull the trigger on a beautiful, quality version for $500 even if I really wanted it
I'm relatively price insensitive when it comes to my computer accessories but $500 feels eggregious to me. I've done the bottoms up calculation to see that we can make the business work at $265 given what I know today and imagine how many more people could enjoy the keyboard if we price it there
The dream is this keyboard is so approachable and satisfying that even people who don't use ergonomics today would be interested in it to prevent future pain (not just ergonomic enthusiasts)
> Armchair quarterbacking here
I appreciate you sharing your thoughts, it's always interesting to consider different directions
> Don't really get the beef with VAT - it's basically identical to US sales tax just higher (and displayed and collected in a slightly different way)
Yeah the unusually high cost is the main thing. I'm seeing VAT charged anywhere from 17–27% on the retail price
US sales tax (also charged on retail price) varies from 2.9%–7.25% from a cursory search
> Btw shipping from China might also trigger import duties (tariff) into the EU - might be worth checking that too
This is a good call to check. It looks like the duties for electronics from China into the EU is 0% according to the TARIC database. The website is pretty crappy though need to double check this to be 100% confident
The pricing makes sense given the build and attention to detail, it’s a bit higher than I was expecting. Totally get why though, I wasn't aware you left Meta recently, salute to you for pursuing your dream projects! I’ve been really excited about this keyboard for a while now since your first blog about it, so here are a few curious questions now that it's close to the Kickstarter:
1. Once the supply chain evens out and you’ve recouped the upfront costs, what do you think the price per unit might settle at?
2. Does this first version capture everything you originally wanted, or are there a few features you’re saving for future iterations? If yes, what are those?
3. Any idea how much of a discount early Kickstarter backers might get?
4. How will tech support or warranties work if, say, a key stops working after a year?
5. And how far apart can the two halves be placed and still work smoothly? (Asking on behalf of us broad-shouldered folks 😄)
Thanks for sharing your journey so openly Ryan, really appreciate how transparent you’ve been while pushing through the tough parts. Can’t wait to see this come to life! I will try my best to save up to place an order, your keyboard and my email address share the word 'compose'!
> Can’t wait to see this come to life! I will try my best to save up to place an order, your keyboard and my email address share the word 'compose'!
Appreciate your support, spreading the word is very helpful 🙏
> 1. Once the supply chain evens out and you’ve recouped the upfront costs, what do you think the price per unit might settle at?
There's still so much ambiguity to resolve (e.g. shipping/fulfillment, fluctuating tariffs, marketing, customer support costs, returns) that if I told you something now I'd just be guessing
> 2. Does this first version capture everything you originally wanted, or are there a few features you’re saving for future iterations? If yes, what are those?
This first version captures everything I originally wanted
> 3. Any idea how much of a discount early Kickstarter backers might get?
Haven't done the math on this yet but will have the answer in the coming 1-2 weeks for the sake of the Kickstarter
> 4. How will tech support or warranties work if, say, a key stops working after a year?
If there is some manufacturing defect, I expect we would replace it for you
> 5. And how far apart can the two halves be placed and still work smoothly? (Asking on behalf of us broad-shouldered folks 😄)
5-10 meters apart should be no problem. It will work for the most broad-shouldered person of all time
Thank you for the patient responses.
> If there is some manufacturing defect, I expect we would replace it for you
I’m also curious how you plan to handle non‑manufacturing issues, since with electronics it’s often tricky to distinguish between a defect and problems arising from regular use over time. Is there going to be tech support for repairs or the only option would be to purchase a new one?
A detailed policy regarding this later, may help.
It's going to depend on a lot of factors that are still up in the air right now but it is a great question that we will answer at launch (there will be an FAQ section)
I’m not really in the market for your product but I’m following along because I appreciate you taking time to be transparent and think out loud. It’s helpful and even cathartic for me as someone who also is learning similar lessons / asking similar questions. Keep it up! You clearly have the customer in mind and that bodes well.
Happy to do so! Transparency is better for everyone in my opinion, hope there are helpful nuggets in the future journey for you as we go along
I think the price is reasonable and it's worth investing in. Above all, I love the design so much that I hope they'll deliver a real product with a flexible plan that won't break the bank.
I've already decided to participate.
Appreciate your support, we could definitely use it!
> deliver a real product with a flexible plan that won't break the bank
That's the plan, in the next post I'll share more thoughts on timelines with all the information I have. It looks like every new hardware project I see gets delayed on their original timeline and ships late, which I'd like to avoid
Seems like a reasonable price. FWIW keyboard enthusiasts are accustomed to long shipping times. :)
The keyboard looks similar to the Apple magic keyboard. Perhaps, another data point for your comparison table is the price of 2 magic keyboards?
Interesting idea. Not exactly apples to apples since they'd have extra keys, be missing the wireless communication between boards, and lack the tenting/palm pads. Not to mention their operations costs are probably much cheaper per unit given their scale
That being said as a rough estimate it seems within ballpark. Two magic keyboards would cost $200 retail
An extra $65 to get to our target retail for the tenting case and palm pads seems within a reasonable range
Are you committed to the built-in palm rests? Personally I prefer it when they are optional, especially for portability.
Removing the palm rests was something I considered for a long time during the design phase because we wanted it to be as minimal as possible. I removed the palm pads from my Kinesis for a month to give it a serious test
I found it tired my wrists and I would often miss the first key presses before my hands were situated in the right spot. So I knew we needed to offer palm rests
I also considered making them optional that as well. However, that would be difficult given how thin we want to make the keyboard (e.g. magnets not strong enough, thin hinge not reliable enough, etc). Also there's additional operational complexity in letting people order with and without palm pads. We're aiming to keep things simple for the launch to make sure we can deliver on quality
I see the value in what you're asking for even though it won't be in the MVP. I'm open to a future iteration that serves your needs (perhaps a "light" version) depending on how many others want it as well
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I definitely agree with keeping the first run simple.
I guess I won't even ask about ISO layout 😂 I still miss tilde being next to left shift when I use US keyboards.
The other piece of feedback I have is about the left and right arrow keys. The full height keys have been removed from the current generation of Apple keyboard, and with good reason; it's easier to locate and navigate the arrow keys tactilely with the half height left and right keys.
> I guess I won't even ask about ISO layout 😂 I still miss tilde being next to left shift when I use US keyboards.
Haha yea that's probably too much. If there is demand and we deliver well on our first commitment, then maybe one day!
> it's easier to locate and navigate the arrow keys tactilely with the half height left and right keys.
Interesting, you're the second person to say this. Have you tried both and feel this way?
My immediate thoughts were:
1. Using more surface area is better because it is easier to hit and looks better (all the keys are flush)
2. It's pretty easy to locate the arrow keys by the unique sizing of the up and down arrows (seems like this is the part some people may disagree with?)
Armchair quarterbacking here, but I think the niche you have is something special. Apple-like obessive design but for ergonomics keyboard category seems pretty unique and valuable. My alternative take here is that keyboard markets may be bimodal like the furnitures market - there isn't much of a buyer between Ikea and design within reach. So what about focusing on making the most beautiful, travel friendly, high quality ergonomics keyboard and charge double what you are thinking now? You would only need sell half as much to bring in the same revenue but hopefully at a higher margin.
> So what about focusing on making the most beautiful, travel friendly, high quality ergonomics keyboard
I agree that quality should be the number one priority and we should charge whatever is needed to make the best possible keyboard we can. During the design phase, if ever we were faced with a quality <> cost tradeoff we always picked the higher quality option
> charge double what you are thinking now
This seems to be the strategy of the NUIO keyboard (they're charging north of $500) and from what I can tell, hardly anyone is buying it. I don't see too many people talking about it or reviewing it
Also, taking a step back, when I imagine myself buying an ergonomic keyboard given that the Kinesis is available for $144 I don't think I'd pull the trigger on a beautiful, quality version for $500 even if I really wanted it
I'm relatively price insensitive when it comes to my computer accessories but $500 feels eggregious to me. I've done the bottoms up calculation to see that we can make the business work at $265 given what I know today and imagine how many more people could enjoy the keyboard if we price it there
The dream is this keyboard is so approachable and satisfying that even people who don't use ergonomics today would be interested in it to prevent future pain (not just ergonomic enthusiasts)
> Armchair quarterbacking here
I appreciate you sharing your thoughts, it's always interesting to consider different directions
Don't really get the beef with VAT - it's basically identical to US sales tax just higher (and displayed and collected in a slightly different way).
I reckon most people in the market for a ~220€ keyboard can probably take the VAT hit.
Btw shipping from China might also trigger import duties (tariff) into the EU - might be worth checking that too.
> Don't really get the beef with VAT - it's basically identical to US sales tax just higher (and displayed and collected in a slightly different way)
Yeah the unusually high cost is the main thing. I'm seeing VAT charged anywhere from 17–27% on the retail price
US sales tax (also charged on retail price) varies from 2.9%–7.25% from a cursory search
> Btw shipping from China might also trigger import duties (tariff) into the EU - might be worth checking that too
This is a good call to check. It looks like the duties for electronics from China into the EU is 0% according to the TARIC database. The website is pretty crappy though need to double check this to be 100% confident